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Main Date: 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 From: DonkeyHody Subject: Pearls Before the Swine "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all the ones I'm building are already designated for others. Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish on these will be dry on time. My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers   Date: 10 Dec 2006 10:26:16 From: DonkeyHody Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine C & S wrote: > > That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to > make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand > "amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that" > (without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack. > If it is just a paying customer, (I only have a few) I don't have any problem telling them that my time in the shop is limited by my other obligations, and that anything I make for them will be long in coming and very expensive. The people who place a special value on the fact that something was hand-made especially for them don't seem to mind spending the money or waiting for me to get around to building them. The paying customers are free to pay my prices or not get it done. No hard feelings either way. But family and good friends are different. They (A) seem to think I can build anything in the world out of wood and (B) don't have a clue how much time or expense is involved. For instance, I just finished a trash can for our kitchen that looks more like a piece of furniture. One friend said, "You know you could sell those!" I said, "Probably, but you know, that one has eighty dollars worth of wood in it." She said, "Oh." What she didn't say was, while she'd like to have one, she didn't think it was worth more than fifty. I think I'll apply Edwin's rule for friends and family. No sales to them. Either you get it because I want to give it to you, or you don't get it. No buying and no sense asking. That's the only way I can keep up with the projects SWMBO has for me to build. And I know better than to put her project on the back burner while I build something for another woman, even if it is one of her friends. DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle   Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:04:43 From: Don Fearn Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine I think it was "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > who stated: >"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot >and turn to gore thee." [snip happens] >My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the >amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for >such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable >sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, >much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know >I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > >How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations twice. I bartered. The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said, tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge. As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this time of year). The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm wool sox. I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's unique and maybe special . . . . -Don -- "Trust me, there is NO way to nonchalantly conceal the fact that you have a power tool in your head, no matter what you do." -- El Gato     Date: 10 Dec 2006 10:33:31 From: Steve B Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Don Fearn" <pooder@charter.net > wrote in message news:urhon21860318htq12gpt1sman2hc3k4m6@4ax.com... >I think it was "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net> who stated: > >>"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot >>and turn to gore thee." > [snip happens] >>My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the >>amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. >> I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for >>such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable >>sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, >>much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know >>I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. >> >>How do you folks handle these situations? > > I've had similar situations twice. I bartered. > > The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it > comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends > wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry > bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said, > tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge. > > As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder > would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a > shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the > cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm > wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this > time of year). > > The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made > for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm > wool sox. > > I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even > consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve > stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's > unique and maybe special . . . . > > -Don I made some basket trees once for a friend of my wife's. Basically, a broomstick with an eye hook on top, hanging down with dowels every foot or so at angles so that it can be hung from the ceiling, and then baskets put on each dowel. The woman insisted on paying me. I bought enough materials for six. The lady wanted two, my wife wanted two, and I figured someone else would want a couple. I was right. If I was to charge someone for my time, I would have to charge as much as those high priced catalogs where she saw the item. Finally, she said she would cook dinner for my wife and I one night. She did, and it wasn't spaghetti mac. I felt like I got the best of the deal. My wife ended up swapping the extra two for something or other. Things exchanged among friends for barter can't be converted to money. So long that each person thinks it's fair and it doesn't end up that you're doing work every week on stuff you'd rather not fool with. I do know that when I offer to do work for barter, the other person will trade more than I would have asked for if I were the one to set the parameters on the deal. Just my experiences. Steve       Date: 12 Dec 2006 07:19:14 From: Prometheus Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:33:31 -0800, "Steve B" <dsrttrvlr@aol.com > wrote: >Things exchanged among friends for barter can't be converted to money. So >long that each person thinks it's fair and it doesn't end up that you're >doing work every week on stuff you'd rather not fool with. I do know that >when I offer to do work for barter, the other person will trade more than I >would have asked for if I were the one to set the parameters on the deal. A little addition to this, and my previous comments- While some things can't be bought at any price, I usually bend over backwards to help out someone who is willing to learn something about making what they want, even if I lose money in the bargin. Same thing goes for barter, as you noted above. >Just my experiences. > >Steve >     Date: 10 Dec 2006 15:28:07 From: Greg O Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Don Fearn" <pooder@charter.net > wrote in message news:urhon21860318htq12gpt1sman2hc3k4m6@4ax.com... > > > The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made > for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm > wool sox. > > You traded wood working for sex with a shee....never mind! I gotta clean my glasses! PoorUB '05 Ultra Classic '06 MAMBM   Date: 10 Dec 2006 09:28:00 From: Robatoy Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" <spamme...@bellsouth.net > wrote: > "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot > and turn to gore thee." > > I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . Ohhhh yeah... BTDT. What would be a nice size for a tray like that? I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no? r     Date: 10 Dec 2006 20:34:41 From: Rick M Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Robatoy" wrote > I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my > sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be > one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds > per sq-ft) > That might be a bit heavy, no? Rob, A casserole carrier design that was passed along to me several years ago was made from a laminate sink cutout: Shape is roughly 10x14 inches, corners rounded to approximately 3 inch radius. Mark the center and then draw circles with radii increasing 1" at a time. Then, divide the circles into 8 equal quadrants. Drill 3/8" holes at least 3/8" deep, no more than 3/4 of material thickness at every circle/quadrant intersection, keeping 1" margin to any edges. Cut 6 to 8 3/8" dowels approximately 4" long, bevel the edges. Install two cabinet pulls for handles. Round the edges with a 1/4" or 3/8" radius roundover bit. This little operation took about an hour from taking a painted piece of pine board down with the sander to wiping on the finish coat (no, it wasn't poly TYVM) ... an easy hour in the shop at the end of the work day. In use, the casserole dish is placed on the board, pegs are used to restrain the dish gently (don't bother hammering the pegs in ... you lose points somehow), and thus one is able to transport a hot out-of-the-oven dish to that communal meal without worrying about the dish sliding around the trunk so easily. I don't have any photos, though I do have the template I tried using (it was much faster to draw the circles, drill the holes and then sand the lines off than it was to use a template and draw the hole locations) if you need a visual. Never got to keep any of them, as they were made for the church's holiday market ... those things sold FAST. Good thing they were all made from scrap wood. The handles were held on with countersunk hardware from below ... not trusting wood screws for something like this. You might find reducing the stock thickness will reduce the weight sufficiently to make this work. Next time ... the sloped side casserole tray-style carrier. Regards, Rick       Date: 10 Dec 2006 15:42:18 From: Morris Dovey Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Rick M (in Bb_eh.362$Kb6.124@southeast.rr.com) said:     Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:05:13 From: Joe Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Robatoy" <design@topworks.ca > wrote in message news:1165771680.179660.295610@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com... > > > On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" <spamme...@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot >> and turn to gore thee." >> >> I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . > > Ohhhh yeah... BTDT. > > What would be a nice size for a tray like that? > I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my > sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be > one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds > per sq-ft) > That might be a bit heavy, no? > > r > My father made a side table from a similar sink cutout. The cutout was granite. That is one *heavy* table. The nice thing is, when the kids bump into it, my drink doesn't spill. Doesn't do too much for the kids though. jc   Date: 10 Dec 2006 16:30:20 From: J. Clarke Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 -0800, DonkeyHody wrote: > "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot > and turn to gore thee." > > I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . > I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone > after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long > time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for > Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an > open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts > for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom > with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. > I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of > them. > > A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out > in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty > impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I > showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the > lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have > never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they > are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all > the ones I'm building are already designated for others. > > Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about > the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to > ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. > I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to > build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish > on these will be dry on time. > > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? Tell them that this year's run is already spoken for but you'll be happy to put them in the queue for next year at x dollars a pop. If you don't want to do the work then put "x" at a ludicrous level. If they pay it then be sure to sign them. And in the future when you do these things, make some extras. If your friends and family know that so and so paid $100 or 1000 or $10000 or whatever for one your handiworks then they may appreciate it all the more. > DonkeyHody > "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)   Date: 10 Dec 2006 11:22:17 From: C & S Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand "amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that" (without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack. Personally, I'd really like the answer too. -Steve   Date: 10 Dec 2006 09:19:43 From: Morris Dovey Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine DonkeyHody (in 1165758190.419701.139950@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) said:   Date: 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 From: Nova Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine DonkeyHody wrote: > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in two three shelf barrister bookcases. She expected to pay about $100 each and wanted them by Christmas. I told her they would be $1500 - $2000 each and might be ready by Christmas 2007. She went away. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA novasys@verizon.net     Date: 10 Dec 2006 22:59:50 From: B A R R Y Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 GMT, Nova <novasys@verizon.net > wrote: >I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in >two three shelf barrister bookcases. Ahhhh.... The I'll call the local guy because I don't want to pay Ikea's high prices call... <G > I get those on occasion. They're funny, in a way...       Date: 10 Dec 2006 23:07:21 From: Nova Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine B A R R Y wrote: > On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 GMT, Nova <novasys@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >>I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in >>two three shelf barrister bookcases. > > > Ahhhh.... The I'll call the local guy because I don't want to pay > Ikea's high prices call... <G> > > I get those on occasion. They're funny, in a way... Yeah, custom designed, hand made hardwood furniture at below K-Mart prices. What are they smokin'? -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA novasys@verizon.net         Date: 10 Dec 2006 23:22:08 From: B A R R Y Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:07:21 GMT, Nova <novasys@verizon.net > wrote: > >Yeah, custom designed, hand made hardwood furniture at below K-Mart >prices. What are they smokin'? Yaaabbut! You don't have to pay for a factory, a big store, trucking, a greeter at the door... <G > The same morons don't understand the difference between "hand made" (nice quality) and "home made" (cobbled), used in the generally accepted context in woodworking. The best stuff always comes from large factories! Before I get flamed, "home made" is GREAT in respect to cookies and spaghetti sauce!           Date: 10 Dec 2006 23:36:48 From: Nova Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine B A R R Y wrote: > Yaaabbut! > > You don't have to pay for a factory, a big store, trucking, a greeter > at the door... <G> I really got a chuckle out of the "$100 each" though. I paid more than that for the tempered glass in the doors of the last one I made. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA novasys@verizon.net           Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:19:02 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Sun, Dec 10, 2006, 11:22pm (EST+5) beech23pilot@yahoo.com (B=A0A=A0R=A0R=A0Y) doth claimeth: <snip > The same morons don't understand the difference between "hand made" (nice quality) and "home made" (cobbled), used in the generally accepted context in woodworking. The best stuff always comes from large factories! Before I get flamed, "home made" is GREAT in respect to cookies and spaghetti sauce! Gee, that's strange. I've seen stuff labeled "hand made" that was more crap than "nice quality". And have seen stuff the builder called "homemade" that was like a piece of art; about the same with "cobbled" stuff. Guess you had to be there. I've tasted homemade cookies I wouldn't feed to a hog, and have never tasted a homemade spaghetti sauce I enjoyed. Guess you had to be there. JOAT I am, therefore I think.             Date: 12 Dec 2006 14:33:11 From: George Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "J T" <Jakofalltrades@webtv.net > wrote in message news:17097-457EAC46-1168@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net... I've tasted homemade cookies I wouldn't feed to a hog, and have never tasted a homemade spaghetti sauce I enjoyed. Guess you had to be there. Knew a guy who refused to eat at any restaurant advertising "home cooking" because, he said, his mother had been a horrible cook.     Date: 15 Dec 2006 09:12:10 From: Tim Douglass Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 GMT, Nova <novasys@verizon.net > wrote: >I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in >two three shelf barrister bookcases. She expected to pay about $100 >each and wanted them by Christmas. I told her they would be $1500 - >$2000 each and might be ready by Christmas 2007. She went away. My mom used to do custom sewing. She quoted one lady a price and was told "I don't understand, I thought it was supposed to be cheaper to have homemade clothes?". Some people just don't get it. -- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill" Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com   Date: 10 Dec 2006 15:03:48 From: Edwin Pawlowski Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote in message > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? I have a simple rule. You can't buy anything from me. I'll either make it for you for free, or you don't get one. Don't ask either. It is my decision alone (well, maybe with my wife at times) as to who gets what. This year I'm making cutting boards. ($25 in material and about 1.5 hours) I'll be finishing up five of them later today. Two are going to people that we do exchange gifts with, the others have just been chosen for one reason or another. Last year it was routed trivets, the year before it was simple cooking tools, like a spatula. I made a couple dozen of them. Disclaimer. Offer me $750 apiece and the cutting boards will be on the way to you FedEx tomorrow morning. I do have a price, it is not a low one though. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 08:11:01 From: Swingman Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "DonkeyHody" wrote in message > How do you folks handle these situations? By invoking the #1, A1, most important rule in my shop (which I usually mention the second I see where the conversation is headed): NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is finished! We then discuss where on "The List" this new request may fall (generally somewhere after my own mother's, who is far down on said list). That said, just recently someone sent a check, completely out of the blue, for $1K for "material" ... that check went in the bank and their project added to "the list", but moved up a bit in priority ... sorry, Mom! ;) -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/29/06   Date: 10 Dec 2006 22:39:45 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Sun, Dec 10, 2006, 5:43am (EST-3) spammetts@bellsouth.net (DonkeyHody) doth lament: <snip > I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. <snip > I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop <snip > You let peope in to your shop? First mistake. Yeah, agree, the prototype stage is the most funnest. But have found doning one part of a batch, then doing another part later, and so on, helps a lot. Cut say ten pieces, do something you want to do then. Next day something more on the batch, then someing you want to do. Next day - and so on. You let people in your shop? You shoulda said you only had enough material for the eight first off, that mighta stopped er in her tracks. Then if she went on, say you don't know when you "can" get more material - not "will", emphasize the can - 'cause it-s exotic "furrin" wood, and *E*X*P*E*N*S*I*V*E* - emphasize that, and you don't even know when you'll have the funds to spare for that type of furrin wood. If she persista, you can quote her a price up the wazoo, with no time guarantee. Or, when she oohed and ahed over the wood, you could have looked over and said yeah, it's pricey as all Hell, and that was the last of the little you were able to get. It's like the old farmer. His neighbor asked to borrow his rope. He told the neighbor he was using it to tie up his milk with. The neighbor thought that over and said it didn't make any sense. The old farmer said when you don't want to do something any excuse will do. If you'da said something you'd probably be off the hook, now it sounds like you'll be making at least one more somewhere along the road. JOAT I am, therefore I think.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 18:12:53 From: DonkeyHody Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine > I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to > participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind > paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time - > to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's > certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the > sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent > future frivolous requests. > He won't spend his own time, doesn't > want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to > offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch. > It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real > estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship" > has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't > want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the > situation is likely to become unpleasant. > > Ed Bennett I like the way you think, Ed. I've been told by some closest to me that I have a "need to be needed" and that makes me fairly easy prey for those parasites of society who have honed their ability to spot fools like me. I used to think it was petty and uncharitable to keep score. But as I've grown older, I've begun to see a pattern where there are some people I seldom hear from unless they want something. They're usually really friendly people, just too busy with their own lives and their own kids to seek out your company unless there's a direct benefit to them. And since they're so busy, of course there's no time for them to give anything in exchange. I'm learning to keep my distance from those people, but they seem to be everywhere. I can say No, but it's against my nature. Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. DonkeyHody "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones     Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:21:57 From: Bill in Detroit Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine DonkeyHody wrote: > Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who > borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the > husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on > the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can > remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring > a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. > > DonkeyHody > "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones After having to track down my tools far too often while working in a machine shop I adopted a policy of requiring the borrower to leave either their drivers license, their keys, a suitable cash deposit or me. Bill --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0656-0, 12/11/2006 Tested on: 12/11/2006 4:21:58 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com     Date: 11 Dec 2006 15:16:05 From: Patriarch Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote in news:1165803173.368420.194570@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com: <snip > > Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who > borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the > husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on > the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can > remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring > a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. > I love my friends, and do a lot for them, but I seldom will loan tools. On occasion, I have given them tools I no longer needed, but would do them well in their work. But that's different. Being a nice guy is very important. Having your clamps means you can do for friends and customers what you promised. I'll glue a chair happily. In my shop, with my tools. Patriarch   Date: 11 Dec 2006 01:05:22 From: Leon Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote in message news:1165758190.419701.139950@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... Snip > How do you folks handle these situations? > > DonkeyHody > "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers Explain that the reason that she is impressed by your work is that you have a method that works. Deviation from that method delivers less desirable results. Give her a picture of what she has seen so that she can show her mother what her late Christmas present is going to be and charge what the piece is worth.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 16:12:09 From: Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Somewhat related - I have these three "intarsia" pieces that I spent hours upon hours making. Whenever I show them to someone, I invariably hear the comment, "Hey, you know, you could sell these things!". After having gone through the pricing analysis so many times before, now I just simply nod my head and let the discussion move on.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 23:03:24 From: Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine >My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the >amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for >such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable >sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, >much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know >I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > I've never found a way to say it nice enough to get people to understand without hurting feelings or getting into arguments. For most relatives there is a set price and a requirement for sweat equity or a labor swap or buy a particular tool. And don't come in here with a cheap chunk of iron and believe that I owe you for the rest of my life.. For a certain relative, I have a standing SOS should he become more stupider that normal and show up around here.. For close family members, good friends and those relatives whose company I truely like, there is no charge although on occasion they were required to pay for certain materials. This group is always # 1 on the list. For a former supervisor who wanted a fancy chest, I went to an expensive place and saw their prices, added 10% and gave him a quote. Just because your my supervisor, don't believe that I need to kiss ass. Just about everyone else is merely an aquaintance and I carefully tell them that I'm backed up with other projects on the list or I quote them a relatively fair price. I find that I seem to estimate low so the formula gets tweaked a lot. When I do price out a piece, I estimate the material + 10% (it costs to go find it and get it home). Figure out how many hours it should take to complete reguardless of how much time it actually takes. Material and labor X 2 should cover heat and power, wear and tear on tools and supplies ( sandpaper and finishes aint free). Final price depends on the project and the person who asks for it. This isn't a perfect way to do pricing, but it seems to work out. pete     Date: 10 Dec 2006 22:50:13 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Sun, Dec 10, 2006, 11:03pm (EST+5) cselby@mts.net doth estimate: <snip > I estimate the material + 10% (it costs to go find it and get it home). <sni > I never figure in transportation costs, because I always combine errends when I get materials; ever figure in wear and tear on the tools, etc., either, because I'd be doing it regardless - but if I was doing it for a living I would. JOAT I am, therefore I think.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 13:16:09 From: Andy Dingley Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Swingman wrote: > NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is > finished! My whiteboard currently has 29 listed on it, and that's just the serious stuff that actually got listed! I also make far more money from woodworking when I give the stuff away from my hobby, rather than trying to sell it and make a living from it. As any crafts person can tell you, it's always better to give things away than sell them cheaply. People appreciate a gift and they understand they're not repeatable. Sell one thing cheap once and you've established the market rate forever.   Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:53:03 From: Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine This happens to me constantly. If it's not woodworking, it's machining, printing, web/html work, video production, editing, or DVD duplication. I don't mind trading favors with friends who regularly and reliably "pay it back". But, quite often it's someone who has a WalMart sense of value and nothing to offer in return. I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time - to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent future frivolous requests. Some people won't give up until you set a price. Be realistic. Put together a real cost breakdown including what you time is worth (to your employer). It will be insulting if you just toss out a high price without any justification. But, if they see how the costs break down then they will appreciate the value of their request. And, if they decide to go for it, then you won't be wasting your time. 99.9% of all requests are easily handled by the above. However, I still have one person who just doesn't seem to get it. He really has a WalMart sense of values and views my time as worthless. None of my efforts have changed his mind. He won't spend his own time, doesn't want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch. It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship" has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the situation is likely to become unpleasant. Ed Bennett ejb@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com DonkeyHody wrote: > "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot > and turn to gore thee." > > I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . > I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone > after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long > time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for > Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an > open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts > for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom > with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. > I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of > them. > > A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out > in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty > impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I > showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the > lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have > never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they > are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all > the ones I'm building are already designated for others. > > Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about > the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to > ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. > I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to > build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish > on these will be dry on time. > > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? > > DonkeyHody > "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers   Date: 11 Dec 2006 06:22:45 From: Robatoy Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine J T wrote: > > You shoulda said you only had enough material for the eight first > off, that mighta stopped er in her tracks. Then if she went on, say you > don't know when you "can" get more material - not "will", emphasize the > can - 'cause it-s exotic "furrin" wood, and *E*X*P*E*N*S*I*V*E* - > emphasize that, and you don't even know when you'll have the funds to > spare for that type of furrin wood. If she persista, you can quote her > a price up the wazoo, with no time guarantee. > Yup.. that's how I pretty much deal with that these days. "Unobtainum" wood... hand cultivated by Newfoundland virgins.....extremely hard to find. (ducking) NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my countertops. Besides, my immediate family has me booked till 2020. That's my story.. and I'm sticking to it.     Date: 11 Dec 2006 08:29:58 From: Morris Dovey Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Robatoy (in 1165846965.754327.132980@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) said:       Date: 11 Dec 2006 08:53:31 From: jo4hn Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Morris Dovey wrote: > Robatoy (in 1165846965.754327.132980@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) > said: > >     Date: 11 Dec 2006 23:55:35 From: Jim Northey Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Robatoy" <design@topworks.ca > wrote in message news:1165846965.754327.132980@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > Yup.. that's how I pretty much deal with that these days. "Unobtainum" > wood... hand cultivated by Newfoundland virgins.....extremely hard to > find. (ducking) > NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my > countertops. > Besides, my immediate family has me booked till 2020. > > That's my story.. and I'm sticking to it. > What's harder to find the unobtanium wood or the NF virgins? :-) Jim       Date: 12 Dec 2006 11:35:02 From: George Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Jim Northey" <jnorthey@shaw.ca > wrote in message news:Xdmfh.462290$1T2.192256@pd7urf2no... > > "Robatoy" <design@topworks.ca> wrote in message > news:1165846965.754327.132980@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> Yup.. that's how I pretty much deal with that these days. "Unobtainum" >> wood... hand cultivated by Newfoundland virgins.....extremely hard to >> find. (ducking) >> NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my >> countertops. >> Besides, my immediate family has me booked till 2020. >> >> That's my story.. and I'm sticking to it. >> > > What's harder to find the unobtanium wood or the NF virgins? :-) Newfie virgins? C'mon, some ten-year-olds can run faster than their uncles....       Date: 14 Dec 2006 00:44:03 From: Bill in Detroit Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Jim Northey wrote: > > What's harder to find the unobtanium wood or the NF virgins? :-) > Jim Without the wood, what use is the virgin? Bill --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0658-0, 12/13/2006 Tested on: 12/14/2006 12:44:03 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com         Date: 14 Dec 2006 03:22:30 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Thu, Dec 14, 2006, 12:44am reply@online.com (Bill=A0in=A0Detroit) now queryeth: Without the wood, what use is the virgin? You send the virgin, and I'll get back to you on that. JOAT Where does Batman buy gas for the Batmobile?   Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:33:03 From: Burgy Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine I just tell them I spend so much time here learning how to adjust my equipment and thin finish, that I really don't have time to waste in the shop. "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote in message news:1165758190.419701.139950@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot > and turn to gore thee." > > I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . > I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone > after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long > time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for > Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an > open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts > for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom > with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. > I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of > them. > > A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out > in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty > impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I > showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the > lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have > never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they > are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all > the ones I'm building are already designated for others. > > Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about > the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to > ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. > I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to > build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish > on these will be dry on time. > > My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the > amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. > I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for > such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable > sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? > > DonkeyHody > "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers > ---------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3397 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!   Date: 11 Dec 2006 03:32:48 From: Upscale Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote in message > > A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, > much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know > I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. > > How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations happen with my leatherwork. I only make things as gifts for friends and I'm always honest up front when someone wants to pay me to make something for them. When I explain to them that something took me 30 hours to make and even if I charged them the low amount of $10 per hour, it would mean they'd have to pay me $300, the request to make something for them always fades after that.     Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:40:20 From: Leon Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Upscale" <upscale@teksavvy.com > wrote in message news:bcc6f$457d17b2$cef88bc5$14854@TEKSAVVY.COM... > > "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > >> A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, >> much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know >> I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. >> >> How do you folks handle these situations? > > I've had similar situations happen with my leatherwork. I only make things > as gifts for friends and I'm always honest up front when someone wants to > pay me to make something for them. When I explain to them that something > took me 30 hours to make and even if I charged them the low amount of $10 > per hour, it would mean they'd have to pay me $300, the request to make > something for them always fades after that. > > In the case of woodworking most often it really is the case that if the customer has to ask the price they cannot afford it.       Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:25:22 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net > wrote in message news:8ddfh.5885$Ga1.257@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net... > > In the case of woodworking most often it really is the case that if the > customer has to ask the price they cannot afford it. > > So... how else would they know the price? Even those who can afford things need to know how much to dish out. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net         Date: 12 Dec 2006 00:24:30 From: Leon Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net > wrote in message news:acc42$457dcd8a$452894fb$28702@ALLTEL.NET... > > "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message > news:8ddfh.5885$Ga1.257@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net... > >> >> In the case of woodworking most often it really is the case that if the >> customer has to ask the price they cannot afford it. >> >> > > So... how else would they know the price? Even those who can afford > things > need to know how much to dish out. I start off with trying to find out how much they expect to spend and work my bid from there. I never, well almost never, give a price before designing and getting the customers approval. If they are serious they generally stay involved in the design process.   Date: 11 Dec 2006 19:09:42 From: DonkeyHody Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Tom Watson wrote: > > Things were going along just fine until Bindlestiff showed up. > Thanks Tom, I needed that. DonkeyHody "The cheapest things in life are free."   Date: 11 Dec 2006 21:04:29 From: Tom Watson Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 -0800, "DonkeyHody" <spammetts@bellsouth.net > wrote: >"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot >and turn to gore thee." > > >How do you folks handle these situations? > >DonkeyHody >"We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers Bindlestiff: Things were going along just fine until Bindlestiff showed up. Today was my first day back in the shop since December and what a nice day it was, weather wise. Fifty-some degrees and sunny - a perfect day to begin cleaning up the mess I'd left from the last job I did. In the normal course of events I clean up the shop just after finishing a project - empty the dust collector - re-hang the clamps - put away the odd tools that were left out in the hurly burly of completing an installation. This time I'd gotten bronchitis towards the end of the job and it had hung on for the better part of two months - so the shop looked like hell. I was well on my way to having things squared away and was fitting a freshly cleaned Leuco finish blade ($180.00 in 1987 money) back onto the Unisaw when I was startled by a loud banging on the shop door. Now, my shop door is really a pair of fifteen light French doors and any damned fool coulda seen that my back was turned and that I was bent over the tablesaw, concentrated like. That made no nevermind to Bindlestiff, who pummeled the doors hard enough to rattle the glass close on to breaking and rattling me to the degree that I dropped the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money) into the innards of the Unisaw - and it didn't sound like it had a real easy trip to the bottom, neither. Bindlestiff pretty much passes the duck test. He looks like a duck. He walks like a duck. And he sounds like a duck. But he's about six foot five and weighs better than an eighth of a ton - and he has a house down the road from me a bit, so I figger he ain't really a duck. What he is, is a man who constantly tests the forbearance of his fellow man - what we here in the Southeast corner of Penssyltucky call, "A real pain in the ass." I calmed myself for a bit by taking a few of those deep cleansing breaths that I had learned about in the Lamaz classes I'd taken with my wife, in preparation for the birth of my oldest child, although I'm not sure why I did that, as it hadn't worked for my wife when it came right down to it. When it came right down to it, she turned purple, dug her nails into my hand and cussed me and the doctor both, with language strong enough to burn the paint off the delivery room walls. Hoping for a better result, and somewhat addled by the deep breaths, I turned to face Bindlestiff. He stood on the other side of the French doors, that I keep locked, so that I won't be startled by intruders ( ! ), with a big grin on his ducklike face. I've always made it a policy to be nice to the neighbors, even the ones that I don't care for much, because I was running a sub-rosa cabinetmaking shop behind my house, in a residential area - and I didn't want anybody to rat me out to the township. But I was retired from professional cabinetmaking now and thought to give Bindlestiff a piece of my mind. It was only the fear of being physically accosted by a six foot five, better than an eighth ton duck that made me open the doors quietly and say, "Hello, Bindlestiff." "I could see from the road that you was working in here. Can you cut the tongue offa this piece of flooring for me", quacks Bindlestiff. He held out a gnarly chunk of prefinished oak flooring, with a battered tongue and about a dozen nail holes along its twelve-inch length. "I tried to beat it in to make it fit but it wouldn't lay down and I don't have no more pieces left." "Sure", says I, so used to keeping peace with the neighbors that I did not express my inner thought of just where this mangled piece of flooring should rightly go. I went to the tablesaw to retrieve the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money). "Boy, you sure did jump when I knocked on your door." "Yeah, too much coffee, I guess.", says I, while thinking about what kind of substances Mother Bindlestiff must have ingested during Bindlestiff's gestation period to produce such an awkward lump of flesh. I retrieved the Leuco from the bowels of the Unisaw cabinet and set about looking it over very carefully. Listen here, I had interviewed three different saw sharpeners before selecting one to sharpen that blade. It has a funny tooth configuration, with a hollowed tooth that comes to real sharp points on the outside edges - and it needs someone who won't mangle it according to the usual practice of sharpening shops. The guy I picked had kept the blade in primo condition for over fifteen years, without wasting any carbide. It was my best blade for fine crosscut work. As to why I mounted it with the intent of ripping the tongue off of the flooring piece, I couldn't tell you. I guess I just wanted to get Bindlestiff out of my shop as quickly as possible. I didn't see any damage to the blade and set about to fire up the Unisaw. "I pulled all the nails out real good." Says Bindlestiff, and, taking him at his word, and not seeing any evidence of metal in the holes, I turned on the saw. I've a long-standing habit of staying out of the line of fire when turning on the tablesaw. Over the years I've had a few blades spit teeth at me when the saw started up and I no longer even think about standing where they can get me. Bindlestiff, not being particularly mechanical, as evidenced by his violated flooring board, had not learned any protective strategies in this regard - and he stood right in line with the Leuco when she started up. I'd told him to stand off to the side but Bindlestiff ain't much of a listener. I got about four inches into the cut when all hell broke loose. The shrapnel caught Bindlestiff right in the middle of his, "I'd Rather Be Bowling" tee shirt and described a straight line through the dancing bowling pin graphic, from just below his neck to just above his belt. Bindlestiff emitted a huge quack and had the most perfect look of shock and stupefaction on his face. Three small blood blossoms overtook the washed out colors of the "IRBB" tee shirt. A fourth tooth had shattered the fluorescent tube in the overhead light and shards of thin glass, along with a powdery substance wafted down onto Bindlestiff's head. The carbide didn't go in too deep. Bindlestiff picked the pieces out with his fingers. They were shaking pretty good. I'd shut the saw down by reflex and once I saw that Bindlestiff wasn't mortally wounded, I picked up the piece of oak flooring. The evidence was clear. There was a shiny piece of cut off flooring nail winking out from the board's edge. "I had to twist one of them nail heads off." Says Bindlestiff, while fingering a puckered spot on his vast belly - that wasn't really bleeding much at all. Well, old Bindlestiff wasn't hurt much. He had a few dents in his gut and some glass that we had to blow out of his hair with the air compressor. He left the shop, with a new respect for the truth about hidden nails and a promise to pay for the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money). I watched him walk down the road and thought about how getting a set of shades for the French doors might not be such a bad idea. Regards, Tom Watson tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/     Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:03:59 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Mon, Dec 11, 2006, 9:04pm notme@erehwon.com (Tom=A0Watson) doth lament: Bindlestiff: <snip of a sad tale > My tale is a bit funnier. My shop is small, so I normally leave the double doors open. Ear muffs on, dust mask, face shield, table saw going. Notice movement out of the corner of my eye. Here's a well dressed couple, and and women. The woman's bounding up and down waving her hand, practilly jumping clear of the ground. No telling how long they'd been there. You can guess where this's going. Shut the saw off, unmask, muffs off. "Can I help you?", I ask. Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason they never visit me anymore. LMAO JOAT I am, therefore I think.       Date: 12 Dec 2006 17:07:35 From: Doug Miller Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine In article <17098-457EA8BF-262@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net >, Jakofalltrades@webtv.net (J T) wrote: >Mon, Dec 11, 2006, 9:04pm notme@erehwon.com (Tom=A0Watson) doth >lament: >Bindlestiff: <snip of a sad tale> > > My tale is a bit funnier. My shop is small, so I normally leave >the double doors open. Ear muffs on, dust mask, face shield, table saw >going. Notice movement out of the corner of my eye. Here's a well >dressed couple, and and women. The woman's bounding up and down waving >her hand, practilly jumping clear of the ground. No telling how long >they'd been there. You can guess where this's going. Shut the saw off, >unmask, muffs off. "Can I help you?", I ask. > > Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's >always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to >bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not >bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason >they never visit me anymore. LMAO Ahh, yes, the good old JWs. They usually don't stick around long after we tell them we're Roman Catholic. At our previous house, the crucifix (hand-carved by my FIL, by the way -- obligatory woodworking content) hanging on the living room wall was clearly visible from the front door. Their visits were typically very, very short. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.         Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:58:36 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Tue, Dec 12, 2006, 5:07pm (EST+5) spambait@milmac.com (Doug=A0Miller) dot sayeth: Ahh, yes, the good old JWs. They usually don't stick around long after we tell them we're Roman Catholic. At our previous house, the crucifix (hand-carved by my FIL, by the way -- obligatory woodworking content) hanging on the living room wall was clearly visible from the front door. Their visits were typically very, very short. Always good info to hav. Crosses are a defense against vampires and Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I suppose if you don't have a cross this would be your best alternative. http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/07/jehovahdogSolent_450x334.jpg JOAT Where does Batman buy gas for the Batmobile?         Date: 16 Dec 2006 01:09:17 From: Bill in Detroit Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Doug Miller wrote: > Ahh, yes, the good old JWs. They usually don't stick around long after we tell > them we're Roman Catholic. At our previous house, the crucifix (hand-carved by > my FIL, by the way -- obligatory woodworking content) hanging on the living > room wall was clearly visible from the front door. Their visits were typically > very, very short. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6184477.stm -- If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881) --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0659-0, 12/15/2006 Tested on: 12/16/2006 1:09:18 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com       Date: 12 Dec 2006 14:27:34 From: Nova Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine J T wrote: > Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's > always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to > bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not > bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason > they never visit me anymore. LMAO It reminds me of the time I was putting a new exhaust system on one of my cars. I had the car in the driveway on jack stands while I was laying under it mounting the muffler. A group of JW's approached and asked if I was busy??? I told them "No, I'm just under here trying to get out of the sun." They proceeded to give me their "sales pitch". -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA novasys@verizon.net         Date: 12 Dec 2006 09:09:26 From: Just Wondering Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Nova wrote: > J T wrote: > >> Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's >> always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to >> bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not >> bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason >> they never visit me anymore. LMAO > > > It reminds me of the time I was putting a new exhaust system on one of > my cars. I had the car in the driveway on jack stands while I was > laying under it mounting the muffler. A group of JW's approached and > asked if I was busy??? I told them "No, I'm just under here trying to > get out of the sun." Ya should've handed them their sign.       Date: 12 Dec 2006 13:42:41 From: Leon Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "J T" <Jakofalltrades@webtv.net > wrote in message news:17098-457EA8BF-262@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net... My tale is a bit funnier. My shop is small, so I normally leave the double doors open. Ear muffs on, dust mask, face shield, table saw going. Notice movement out of the corner of my eye. Here's a well dressed couple, and and women. The woman's bounding up and down waving her hand, practilly jumping clear of the ground. No telling how long they'd been there. You can guess where this's going. Shut the saw off, unmask, muffs off. "Can I help you?", I ask. Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason they never visit me anymore. LMAO I like the people that see my garage door open, stop in front of my driveway and honk their horns so that "I" can walk out there and give them directions. One lady got pissed when I did not get out there fast enough. She got the wrong directions.         Date: 12 Dec 2006 18:52:33 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Tue, Dec 12, 2006, 1:42pm (EST+5) removespamlcb11211@swbell.net (Leon) doth recall: I like the people that see my garage door open, stop in front of my driveway and honk their horns so that "I" can walk out there and give them directions. One lady got pissed when I did not get out there fast enough. She got the wrong directions. I'd have to be in a damned good mood to walk out in a case like that. It'd be more like me to turn around, wave, and go back to what I was doing. JOAT Where does Batman buy gas for the Batmobile?       Date: 12 Dec 2006 07:25:41 From: Swingman Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "J T" wrote in message Mon, Dec 11, 2006, 9:04pm (Tom Watson) doth lament: Bindlestiff: <snip of a sad tale > >>Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason they never visit me anymore. LMAO<< A personal anecdote about the sheer persistence of Jehovah's Witnesses that gained my grudging respect: In my varied careers, and at one point, it was my job to visit villages along the coastline of Western Papua New Guinea and try to convince the natives to leave our seismograph crew's offshore Shoran navigation buoys alone. Many of these natives had seen only a handful of white men and some were not too friendly (it was shortly after Rockefeller's son disappeared, and I was instructed to be on the lookout for signs of him). I tried to search out the headman in each village (you could usually tell him by the ballpoint pen in his sari or loincloth) and we generally ended up in his hooch negotiating the terms of payment to leave our buoys alone. In many cases, in this wild, uncharted at the time, coastline, very difficult to access and visited by only the hardiest, most persistent and arduous journey, I would find, by the presence of WatchTower tracts in the headman's hooch, that the Jehovah Witnesses had just been there before me. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/29/06         Date: 12 Dec 2006 13:46:40 From: Leon Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Swingman" <kac@nospam.com > wrote in message news:xOGdnUAfbrBOMOPYnZ2dnUVZ_oipnZ2d@giganews.com... > A personal anecdote about the sheer persistence of Jehovah's Witnesses > that > gained my grudging respect: > > In my varied careers, and at one point, it was my job to visit villages > along the coastline of Western Papua New Guinea and > try to convince the natives to leave our seismograph crew's offshore > Shoran > navigation buoys alone. > > Many of these natives had seen only a handful of white men and some were > not > too friendly (it was shortly after Rockefeller's son disappeared, and I > was > instructed to be on the lookout for signs of him). > > I tried to search out the headman in each village (you could usually tell > him by the ballpoint pen in his sari or loincloth) and we generally ended > up > in his hooch negotiating the terms of payment to leave our buoys alone. Are you sure you are not mistaking that place for Arkansas? My nephew works in Arkansas getting land owners to sign gas lease contracts. Sounds like the same bunch of people. ;~)           Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:59:20 From: Swingman Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Leon" wrote in message > Are you sure you are not mistaking that place for Arkansas? My nephew > works in Arkansas getting land owners to sign gas lease contracts. Sounds > like the same bunch of people. ;~) LOL ... now that you mention it, the same lack of educational materials and condiments. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/29/06       Date: 13 Dec 2006 05:30:20 From: Par Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine J T <Jakofalltrades@webtv.net >: > Jehovah's Witnesses. LOL I politely told them to get lost. It's > always fun, when you're in the right mood, with nothing better to do, to > bring out a chair, and sit and listen to them. NOT invite them in, not > bring out chairs for them, just sit and listen to them. For some reason > they never visit me anymore. LMAO One of the best I've ever heard was opening the door while a roleplaying gang in the livning room (not seen from the door, but heard) was discussing how to torture someone for vital information. The the gang was all discussing the relative merits of inserting a red hot dagger into the recipients urethra and creative uses of rodents, and the JWs left hurridly. /Par -- Par usenet@hunter-gatherer.org Mind Like A Steel Trap - Rusty And Illegal In 37 States         Date: 13 Dec 2006 07:58:04 From: Upscale Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Par" <usenet@hunter-gatherer.org > wrote in message > into the recipients urethra and creative uses of rodents, and the JWs > left hurridly. I've got it easier than that. As soon as they see that I'm in a wheelchair, they apologise for knocking on the wrong door. Up until the first time that happened, I never realized how prejudicial they are.           Date: 13 Dec 2006 08:43:10 From: George Max Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 07:58:04 -0500, "Upscale" <upscale@teksavvy.com > wrote: > >"Par" <usenet@hunter-gatherer.org> wrote in message >> into the recipients urethra and creative uses of rodents, and the JWs >> left hurridly. > >I've got it easier than that. As soon as they see that I'm in a wheelchair, >they apologise for knocking on the wrong door. Up until the first time that >happened, I never realized how prejudicial they are. > > The JW care about such things? So much for their Christian values.             Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:22:30 From: Upscale Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "George Max" <gmax@wi.rr.com > wrote in message > > > >I've got it easier than that. As soon as they see that I'm in a wheelchair, > >they apologise for knocking on the wrong door. Up until the first time that > >happened, I never realized how prejudicial they are. > > > The JW care about such things? So much for their Christian values. I believe they're only interested in people that can contribute to their organization and don't have anything to do with people who they believe might need some form of support. They must have been jumping with joyful bliss when they got their hooks into Tom Cruise.               Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:24:11 From: Robatoy Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Mike Marlow wrote: > So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for > dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... > Lemme see here... we've done the Dubya thing, 2 or 3 wire 220, Sawstop, left vs right tilt saw and now religion. I have an opinion on religion(s): there are assholes in all religions. There is more strife between Christian factions than any other religion. Rob does not believe in organized crime, organized religion or organized tours. If we all drew a 500 meter circle around us and took care of those within that circle, the world would be a better place. Having said that, there will likely be an asshole who thinks that circle should be 477.3 meters. *shrugs* Gore and Obama 2008. r                 Date: 13 Dec 2006 15:37:23 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Robatoy" <design@topworks.ca > wrote in message news:1166037851.495727.227640@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com... > > If we all drew a 500 meter circle around us and took care of those > within that circle, the world would be a better place. > Having said that, there will likely be an asshole who thinks that > circle should be 477.3 meters. > And just imagine the battles between the 500m circle groups. There'd be the left tilt's the right tilt's, the undecided's, the... -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net                   Date: 13 Dec 2006 14:21:26 From: jo4hn Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Mike Marlow wrote: > "Robatoy" <design@topworks.ca> wrote in message > news:1166037851.495727.227640@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com... > > >>If we all drew a 500 meter circle around us and took care of those >>within that circle, the world would be a better place. >>Having said that, there will likely be an asshole who thinks that >>circle should be 477.3 meters. >> > > > And just imagine the battles between the 500m circle groups. There'd be the > left tilt's the right tilt's, the undecided's, the... > And I saw Dubya tilt to the right and stop. me and Britney 2008               Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:05:16 From: J T Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine Wed, Dec 13, 2006, 11:22am upscale@teksavvy.com (Upscale) doth sayeth: I believe they're only interested in people that can contribute to their organization and don't have anything to do with people who they believe might need some form of support. They must have been jumping with joyful bliss when they got their hooks into Tom Cruise. So you can't contribute? What happens then when one of 'em gets sick, and needs support? They kick their asses out, or just take 'em on to the back forty, shoot 'em, and bury 'em? Doesn't make sense. So Tom Cruise joined them? I thought he'd just gone nuts. Maybe the same thing. Those are only part of the reasons I don't believe in religion. And the Woodworking Gods are with me 100% on that.. JOAT Where does Batman buy gas for the Batmobile?                 Date: 13 Dec 2006 14:03:00 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "J T" <Jakofalltrades@webtv.net > wrote in message news:538-458032CC-15@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net... > > So you can't contribute? What happens then when one of 'em gets > sick, and needs support? They kick their asses out, or just take 'em on > to the back forty, shoot 'em, and bury 'em? Doesn't make sense. So Tom > Cruise joined them? I thought he'd just gone nuts. Maybe the same > thing. > Maybe when they saw Upscale in a wheel chair they really meant that they must be at the wrong door - maybe the person they were looking for was not wheelchair bound. > Those are only part of the reasons I don't believe in religion. > And the Woodworking Gods are with me 100% on that.. > So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net Geeze - can't believe I came this close to actually defending the JW.                   Date: 13 Dec 2006 19:16:42 From: Scott Lurndal Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net > writes: > >"J T" <Jakofalltrades@webtv.net> wrote in message >news:538-458032CC-15@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net... > >> >> So you can't contribute? What happens then when one of 'em gets >> sick, and needs support? They kick their asses out, or just take 'em on >> to the back forty, shoot 'em, and bury 'em? Doesn't make sense. So Tom >> Cruise joined them? I thought he'd just gone nuts. Maybe the same >> thing. >> > >Maybe when they saw Upscale in a wheel chair they really meant that they >must be at the wrong door - maybe the person they were looking for was not >wheelchair bound. > >> Those are only part of the reasons I don't believe in religion. >> And the Woodworking Gods are with me 100% on that.. >> > >So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for >dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... So are the actions of the individuals of the KKK (an organization) merit for dismissing that organization? Religion is the biggest problem the world will face in the next century. scott                     Date: 13 Dec 2006 14:17:10 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home > wrote in message news:ukYfh.13175$wc5.2776@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> writes: > > > >So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for > >dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... > > So are the actions of the individuals of the KKK (an organization) > merit for dismissing that organization? That would be correct. It's the prinicples of the KKK that merit its dismissal as an organization. > > Religion is the biggest problem the world will face in the next > century. > Au contraire - there is absolutely nothing wrong with religion. It's the people in the religions that are the problem. They are the same people that one finds in the human race. If it were not for religion, mankind would simply find some other justification for those problems you foretell. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net                       Date: 13 Dec 2006 20:54:21 From: Scott Lurndal Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net > writes: > >"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message >news:ukYfh.13175$wc5.2776@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... >> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> writes: > >> > >> >So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for >> >dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... >> >> So are the actions of the individuals of the KKK (an organization) >> merit for dismissing that organization? > >That would be correct. It's the prinicples of the KKK that merit its >dismissal as an organization. > >> >> Religion is the biggest problem the world will face in the next >> century. >> > >Au contraire - there is absolutely nothing wrong with religion. It's the >people in the religions that are the problem. They are the same people that >one finds in the human race. If it were not for religion, mankind would >simply find some other justification for those problems you foretell. > If there were only one religion, I'd be tempted to agree. However, there are multiple, fundamentally incompatible religions. So long as that is the case, religion will be the source of much strife. Everyone thinks that their religion is "revealed truth" and any other is apostacy. scott                         Date: 13 Dec 2006 16:10:39 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home > wrote in message news:1MZfh.30160$wP1.28450@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net... > "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> writes: > > > >"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message > >news:ukYfh.13175$wc5.2776@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net... > >> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> writes: > > > >> > > >> >So, if the actions of the individuals of an organization are merit for > >> >dismissing the organization, you must really hate the human race... > >> > >> So are the actions of the individuals of the KKK (an organization) > >> merit for dismissing that organization? > > > >That would be correct. It's the prinicples of the KKK that merit its > >dismissal as an organization. > > > >> > >> Religion is the biggest problem the world will face in the next > >> century. > >> > > > >Au contraire - there is absolutely nothing wrong with religion. It's the > >people in the religions that are the problem. They are the same people that > >one finds in the human race. If it were not for religion, mankind would > >simply find some other justification for those problems you foretell. > > > > If there were only one religion, I'd be tempted to agree. However, > there are multiple, fundamentally incompatible religions. So long as > that is the case, religion will be the source of much strife. Everyone > thinks that their religion is "revealed truth" and any other is apostacy. > Which supports my case. Religion is not different than politics. Differing view/allegiances/beliefs, zealots, and human nature underlying it all. It's not religion, it's the people in religion. The multiplicity of religion does not diminish the point. One religion or one hundred thousand, it still comes down to human nature. As I said in another post, remove religion and humans will still find a way to carry on their antics against one another. Hell - just look at what goes on here in a usenet newsgroup. Religion does not even have to enter the picture. Look back over the past month of posts. You'll see plenty of human nature at work. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net                           Date: 13 Dec 2006 21:27:08 From: George Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net > wrote in message news:d469b$45806d1a$452894fb$25567@ALLTEL.NET... > Which supports my case. Religion is not different than politics. > Differing > view/allegiances/beliefs, zealots, and human nature underlying it all. > It's > not religion, it's the people in religion. The multiplicity of religion > does not diminish the point. One religion or one hundred thousand, it > still > comes down to human nature. As I said in another post, remove religion > and > humans will still find a way to carry on their antics against one another. > > Hell - just look at what goes on here in a usenet newsgroup. Religion > does > not even have to enter the picture. Look back over the past month of > posts. > You'll see plenty of human nature at work. > I think the psychobabble people call what you're doing "projection." You ascribe to others the same rigidity you're displaying. They believe, you believe. Where you differ, you expect them to become enlightened and accept your point of view. It's not about the facts, it's about truth, two very different things. Truth is the personal interpretation of the facts, and is often in conflict with them.                             Date: 13 Dec 2006 19:21:40 From: Mike Marlow Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "George" <george@home.net > wrote in message news:Me_fh.2268$eb5.1226@newsreading01.news.tds.net... > > "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message > news:d469b$45806d1a$452894fb$25567@ALLTEL.NET... > > Which supports my case. Religion is not different than politics. > > Differing > > view/allegiances/beliefs, zealots, and human nature underlying it all. > > It's > > not religion, it's the people in religion. The multiplicity of religion > > does not diminish the point. One religion or one hundred thousand, it > > still > > comes down to human nature. As I said in another post, remove religion > > and > > humans will still find a way to carry on their antics against one another. > > > > Hell - just look at what goes on here in a usenet newsgroup. Religion > > does > > not even have to enter the picture. Look back over the past month of > > posts. > > You'll see plenty of human nature at work. > > > > I think the psychobabble people call what you're doing "projection." You > ascribe to others the same rigidity you're displaying. They believe, you > believe. Where you differ, you expect them to become enlightened and accept > your point of view. It's not about the facts, it's about truth, two very > different things. Truth is the personal interpretation of the facts, and is > often in conflict with them. > Now, that is psychobabble if ever it existed. What's rigid in what I wrote? I simply said it's the people who cause problems, not institutions such as religion. Nothing rigid in that. Nothing to project either. You seem to be the one with the projector George. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net                             Date: 17 Dec 2006 02:11:56 From: Henry St.Pierre Subject: Re: Pearls Before the Swine "George" <george@home.net > wrote in news:Me_fh.2268$eb5.1226@newsreading01.news.tds.net: > > "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message > news:d469b$45806d1a$452894fb$25567@ALLTEL.NET... >> Which supports my case. Religion is not different than politics. >> Differing >> view/allegiances/beliefs, zealots, and human nature underlying it >> all. It's >> not religion, it's the people in religion. The multiplicity of >> religion does not diminish the point. One religion or one hundred >> thousand, it still >> comes down to human nature. As I said in another post, remove >> religion and >> humans will still find a way to carry on their antics against one >> another. >> >> Hell - just look at what goes on here in a usenet newsgroup. >> Religion does >> not even have to enter the picture. Look back over the past month of >> posts. >> You'll see plenty of human nature at work. >> > > I think the psychobabble people call what you're doing "projection." > You ascribe to others the same rigidity you're displaying. They > believe, you believe. Where you differ, you expect them to become &g